One of the main reasons they do better Joe because they get to pick the students that they allow in. They can also kick them out if warranted. The kids that go to Moses Brown or the Abbey are usually in the top five to ten students in their middle school. I know it would be handy if we could blame everything on the unions but that is not the case. Perhaps if you are not happy with the public schools you could work as a volunteer at one to lend your insight and effort. I have volunteered in the past as a mentor and it was a very rewarding experience for me. I also think that the decline in test scores could be a reflection of an overall decline and coarsening in our society as a whole. Do you also think the unions are to blame for the divorce rate, the children out of wedlock rate and the rate of alcohol and drug use.

Joe re read your statement and think about the blame you are trying to place on teachers and the union. Now you are implying they are to blame for the problems of society. Could you please provide some evidence about those catholic schools. One thing that all private schools have in common is an admission process. None ofvthem accept everyone as you well know but if you can prove otherwise please do.

No Joe you do some research and show us those inner city catholic schools that accept anyone and are doing so well. If I said it I would be able to back it up. Now go attack Red and see if you can get this forum shut down like you did east bay

Joe, before moving to Tiverton I spent most of my younger years living and New York City and worked as a advoccate for abused children in Boston and Providence. Those experiences have put me in me neighborhoods that even you might not want to go into.I realize that you have lived on the tough streets of Tiverton for some time now so I guess your are jaded by all that you have seen, but perhaps you should stop making assumptions about other people whom you know so little about. The reason why you want me to do the reaesarch about the private schools who take on all student regardless of grades or behavior is due to the fact that they do not exist. private schools have an application process for a reason and so do charter schools. This puts them at an advantage to public schools. If you refuse to see or acknowledge that, then you are being dishonest. As to the fact that someone from Cranston was arrested for something, it has nothing to do with the fact that your behavior and postings also played a role in the shut down of that section. I read the online site and saw what you wrote. If you won't admit to being at least partly responsible for the problem it will only serve as further proof of your intellectual dishonesty.

I realize that this entry will probably result in some name calling or attack from you but lets at least try and keep it civil. I have seen the exchanges by you and Red and frankly find you both to be behaving like two little bullies towards each other.

By Carol Zimmermann
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- At the end of this past school year, Catholic schools in Chicago, Brooklyn, N.Y., Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Boston and several other cities, closed their doors for good as church officials pointed to declining enrollments, changing demographics and overall lack of funds needed to keep the schools functioning.

Students left with tearful farewells, armed with advice about nearby Catholic schools. Teachers and administrators, also hard hit by the closings, suddenly had to scramble for new jobs, many of them after decades of working in the same school.

When I went to school LONG AGO, one either got the grades , or after consultation with any parent the principal could find, were invited to drop out, and not waste everybody's time. Period.

Some of those dropouts went on to become successful -- one a Million Dollar Club life insurance agent; another owned several auto repair shops, one landed job as sports assistant at a pretty famous catholic school, and was associated with turning many kids around. My "landscaper/snow plower" is 19--dropped out of Tiverton schools (he was bored, not good at sports or reading; fell behind, couldn't seem to catch up, but has been self-employed for 3 years and owns own equipment/truck.

Studying just isn't for everybody ... maybe the emphasis should be placed on the person, and not the credentials of the person. I worked at colleges (BU, BC) and the first question teachers asked was "are you published", "where'd you get your Masters", "what are your academic credentials/degrees".

On the subject of catholic schools, I was taught by much maligned nuns. They worked for free--my tuition was $50 month, with ten cents each week for half a day of mandatory "holy" movies. Hilarious. Today, my niece pays $1500 per year for her son's first grade. The Archdiocese gives many scholarships to needy children. Visit Cathedral School in South End. The kids who attend on scholarship know the sacrifices being made, and work harder, and appreciate discipline.

I'd just like to add that there is an 'admissions' interview with parent(s) and 5 year old child for catholic school enrollment. My great nephew dressed appropriately in suit & tie, memorized his "biog", which was name, town, family (two twin sisters, he said). He threw in that he was irish & egyptian, and a good boy who would study hard. Heaved huge sigh when over.

Maybe this "interview" helped reinforce that schooling was a privilege, that family had expectations he would behave, pay attention, study.

Joe you wrote about private schools who accept all students and were talking about the inner city. I don't think that either of these places are inner city, nor do they just accept everyone. I will completely agree that the parents make the biggest difference other than that I still dont see your point and your info has proven nothing.

Joe, I will have to disagree with you on this one. Those schools you wrote about while noble endeavors are not exactly known as place of great education. They are known as great places where kids can get the help needed.Boys Town is basically an orphanage whose main role is to provide homes for children in need and to provide them with counseling. The education while important is secondary in most cases to the therapy. If you are really just talking about the educational value of such a place, then show me the graduation rates and the college placements and so on. Lets just agree that society and the family needs to be improved upon and then we will perhaps see the desired educational improvements.

Joe the schools you just listed specialize in dealing with tough kids from tough situations. One most people refer to private schools they are talking about the abbey, St. Georges, Bishop connely, Stang, the Pennefeild school.i think we are arguing about two different things.

Joe, the fact is that 99.9 % of the private schools don't take on challenged students. Try sending one of those kids with a behavioral record of suspensions and discipline issues to the Abbey or St. Georges or Connelly or Moses Brown. They don't take them. That is why they are called private schools. The schools that do work with the challenged students get money from the sending town that far exceeeds what is spent per pupil for a public school kid. You are either wrong or just afraid to admit it. You listed some schools that specialize in working with a certain type of student. You started out by saying that private schools accept everyone, which they clearly don't and you haven't shown any evidence that those schools you listed do such a great job teaching the students. where are the coleeg acceptance rates, where are the NECAP scores, where is the proof. You have none.

Joe I don't think it I who risk embarrassment but you who has already experienced it. You said that private schools accept all students. The fact is that they don't. You wrote "They except what comes their way," in regards to private schools. The clear and precise truth is that they don't. Call the Abbey and tell them you have a student you want to enroll. Let them know he has a third grade reading level and has been suspended five times. I am sure that they will be eager to get that student on their campus. Call Bishop Stang and let them know that you have a student who has a severe learning disability and can't read or write. See what they say. Call St. Georges and tell them you have a student with a b- average at the middle school and see if they enroll her into their campus. Private Schools by their very nature do not "accept everything" or everyone "that comes their way". You need to stop with your off base rhetoric and start to get informed.

Joe, no one said that they don't. You claimed that they accept anyone who comes there way.They accept the underprivileged who are academically and behaviorally qualified. As I said before the school you are talking about work with a certain population who meet certain criteria. As with many things you seem confused or just plain wrong. If private schools accepted everyone, they wouldn't be private. Once again call those schools and see if you can enroll someone with poor grades and bad behavior. By the way Joe I have no clue what a ratsabi is or what one sounds like.

Stoney,

You're missing an important point. Rhode Island has a high percentage of students in private schools. More relevant (at least when I did the research a few years ago) is that Rhode Island Catholic schools do comparatively well compared with their peers in neighboring states. One could speculate about several causes of such results, but my impression from general research and personal experience is that Catholic schools are typically a low-cost alternative for parents who ordinarily would have stuck with private schools but feel compelled to avoid them in Rhode Island.

The point is that, even if all of Catholic schools' boost results from selection and self-selection of the student population (and I think that'd be a pretty bold claim to make), those are students who would improve public schools results were they to remain. They'd also help to lift other students through peer assistance and the change in academic culture that they'd inherently bring.

Rhode Island public schools, though, are spectacularly bad at offering adequate opportunities for those on the higher end of the spectrum. And for that, I do blame the unions, as well as the elected officials and hired administrators who've caved in to their demands for far too long.

Or could it be that Rhode Island has a very high percentage of residents that are catholic. Justin the point that Joe was trying to make is that private schools accept all students. In his words they accept everything that comes there way. Do you agree with him on that point. The point still is that private schools do not have to deal with many of the problems or issues that are presented by certain students that a public school has little recourse while working with.

Stoney:

I wrote that "Catholic schools do comparatively well compared with their peers in neighboring states." The alternate explanation that you suggest might apply if the question were number of students, not academic achievement. Be that as it may, there are probably a number of contributing factors, as I acknowledged.

Catholic schools do not "accept everything that comes their way," but the baseline, from my experience with them, is often a minimal level of engagement and motivation from the parents. To be sure, public schools cannot require such things.

But I'm going to insist, again, that that's not the point. Given the need to take more difficult students, public schools cannot afford to continue giving motivated, active parents with intelligent children reasons to seek private schools and other options, such as charters. Unfortunately, they are locked into a professional culture that redirects so much revenue toward unsustainable salaries and benefits structures that they must shed programs that aren't required by law — i.e., the ones designed for the neediest and most challenged families, not the families that could contribute to the schools beyond their taxes.

Once again Joe, the Wheeler School does not take everyone hence the term private school.
THE WHEELER SCHOOL ADMISSION CHECK LIST
Please submit ALL Application Materials (including: completed application, transcript, teacher recommendation(s) and testing (if applicable) to the Admission Office no later
than January 31, 2011.
APPLICATION:
To be completed by Parent(s) or Guardian(s) with non-refundable $60.00 fee
Date Submitted: ________________
TRANSCRIPTS:
Transcript Release Form – must include at least the last 2 1⁄2 years of grades (Upper, Middle and Lower Schools)
Date Submitted: ________________
TEACHER RECOMMENDATION FORMS: Two Current Teacher Recommendations Forms for Middle and Upper Schools –
Math and English (one each) One Current Teacher Recommendation Form for Lower School
VISITS:
Student visit must be completed by February 11, 2011 (Application is not considered complete without a student visit)
Student Visit to Wheeler School - One Week Minimum Notice Required (Upper, Middle and Lower Schools)
Date of Visit: ________________ Parent Visit (not required) Date of Visit: ________________
TESTING: For students entering Grade 6 and above (November, December or January Testing Dates) SSAT or ISEE Tests taken and scores sent to Wheeler School
Date of Test: ___________________
FINANCIAL AID INFORMATION:

You just can't seem to admit that you are wrong and way off base on this one. Every one knows that a private school has admissions standards, everyone but you.

Justin blame the special ed laws and class sizes as well as a lack of concern for education and discipline. Are those things also the result of the teacher union. I am sure that you and the TCC will find away to blame all problems on them. By the way the numbers for the closest catholic school and the one that many local families send a child to are not that great. (connelly)

You got me Joe, You are right Wheeler School, The Abbey, St. Georges, LaSalle, and all the other prep school and private schools accept everyone that applies. I wonder why they call them private schools. Joe, this argument is not about the unions. it is about your inability to admit when you are wrong. All of my family could read before they entered school as well, but what does that prove? Does your family really believe that all private schools accept all students. If they really think that than they are as knuckleheaded as you on this subject. You can argue and attack unions all you want but that has nothing to do with the point that you and I have been discussing that private schools are just that , private. They all have admissions standards and discipline standards that they adhere to very strictly. And yes Joe Wheeler School does accept some kids with learning problems but those students attend a different campus and are taught in classes as small as five to one student teacher ratio. Give it up Joe, you are making yourself look like a more like a moron with every post.

Joe an IEP is a document that a student and his family are given when that student is deemed as needing special education services. It would be useful if the school was one where only students with special needs went. Thank you once again for proving you complete lack of knowledge about all things educational.

What is the Individualized Education Program (IEP)?

An Individualized Education Program (IEP) describes the educational program that has been designed to meet that child's unique needs. Each child who receives special education and related services must have an IEP. Each IEP must be designed for one student and must be a truly individualized document. The IEP creates an opportunity for teachers, parents, school administrators, related services personnel, and students (when age appropriate) to work together to improve educational results for children with disabilities. The IEP is the cornerstone of a quality education for each child with a disability.

The Individualized Education Program (IEP) is a legally binding document. It establishes a plan for an individual student who meets the following eligibility criteria:

1) Is identified as having one or more of the 13 disabilities (you can count Sensory disability as 1 or as 3 separate: Hearing, Vision, Deaf-Blind) defined in state and Federal laws.
(Which ever law provides the most coverage, is law that is applied.)
Stick to the budget Joe. You are way off base on this.

Joe you stated very clearly that private schools take whatever comes their way. It is clear that you don't know your elbow from you as_ about this issue and you just wont admit when wrong. Were the teachers unionized when you went to school. Are they to blame for your educational shortcomings and problems? I don't choose to mix words to win my argument(whatever that means) but to use facts. You can only hold the TCC line about the evil teachers unions and other public employees as they destroy the country. You may know something about something,Joe but you don't know much about education

And Joe, how will the new diploma system improve the schools. How will it make things better in your opinion. Please provide some facts and some evidence to support your claims.

Joe you wrote "private school don't just take the best students. They except what comes their way." Unless you are specifically talking about behavioral schools and the special needs schools then what you said is like of everything else you blather on and on about, patently false,. But then you know that already. Thanks for the evidence to support the multi tier diploma system. you overwhelmed me with your heady knowledge of the subject. Joe, what diploma tier would you have completed seeing as how you are an expert in so many areas?

Joe this entry leaves me perplexed. You quote yourself and do so incorrectly at that. Perhaps we should just disagree on this one. I went to both the private school and public school and found both to be great experiences with great teachers at both and crappy uncaring teachers at both. when most people refer to private schools they are talking about St. Georges and the Abbey type schools. The one you refer to are specialized schools for kids with serious problems and are not known as great schools but as really good therapeutic settings. The truth about private schools is that they usually feature a very low student to teacher ratio and students from the top twenty percent of their public schools. Can you at least tell me why you wrote about IEPs being all that is needed to get into private schools. I am still scratching my head about that one.

Just more evidence that you know very little about an iep or anything other than the anti teacher anti union stance that the tcc has taken. You are so wrong and so of base on this one that it further damages your already poor creditability and enhances your reputation as the serial misinformer for the tcc. Any facts or evidence to support your multi tier diplomas.

So in reality Joe, you support a program that you know nothing about. How will a multi tiered diploma system improve the education of our students? You may claim to have read a bunch of articles but in reality you have no facts to back up anything you say. I wonder why an educational expert such ad yourself did not run for school comm.

You have to pay attention and listen. Education Commissioner Deborah Gist has given several detailed talks on this subject. I guess you can say I heard it right from the horses mouth. She has the backing of many politically active groups in the state who support her efforts .RISC has a web site and they also cover the subject. There is a lot of information out there just waiting for you to read . Take off your blinders and see the world.

And you should pay attention as well Joe. Many other highly respected education experts oppose the plan. I am wondering what are your reasons for supporting the program. How does it improve the system and make students better educated?Surely you have some facts or do you take everything that Gist has on face value. Did she do such a great job in DC or in her eight years as an elementary teacher that you have such complete trust in her or is it her anti-union philosophy that gives her such strong credentials in your opinion? Take of the TCC blinders and see the world. It is far more complex and nuanced than you can imagine.

Joe, when you cut and paste you really should give credit and also try and stay on topic. What does Liedecker have to do with this topic?

wow....53 messages back and forth.....do either of you even have children in the educational system? a job? a valued interest in building this community?... or would you rather just keep peeing on the same bush to prove who is the better dog? You should both be ashamed.

Sorry Gloria did not mean to offend you. Yes I have kids in the system and I can't sit idly by while Joe spins his bologna. Is there a certain number of comments or dialogue that you would approve of.

For all parties concerned
Quick Reference Guide to Frequently Misused Words or Phrases: Suitable for clipping
out and keeping near the keyboard when writing comments.

There: a place. We are there.
They´re: short for they are. They're new in town.
Their: posessive, belonging to 'them'. Their school. Their way. Their problem.
Collage: an art project.
College: a place of higher learning
Except: can be used instead of 'but'. Everyone can come except you.
Accept: to be included. We accept everyone. We even accept credit cards!
Here: a place
Hear: to listen
Credibility: refers to someone´s authority to discuss a subject
Creditability: this is not a word (sorry Stoney...)